Compounds of the formula (I) or salts thereof in which R1, R3=H, (subst.) hydrocarbon radical (HC) or (subst.) heterocyclyl which, including substituents, have 1-30 carbon atoms, R2=R0—Q0—, in which R0=H, (subst.) HC or (subst.) heterocyclyl radical, in each case having 1-30 carbon atoms including substituents, and Q0=a direct bond or —O—, —SO2-, —NH—, —N[(C1-C6)alkyl]-, —CO—, —CO—NH— or —O—CO—NH—; R4=H, halogen, NO2, CN, (C1-C4)alkyl, (C1-C4)alkoxy, [(C1-C4)alkyl]carbonyl or [(C1-C4)alkoxy]carbonyl, where each of the last four radicals may be halogenated; R5=H or (C1-C4)alkyl; Q=O or NR*; R*=H. (C1-C4)alkyl, (C3-C4)alkenyl or (C3-C4)alkynyl, where each of the last three radicals may be substituted by halogen, (C1-C4)alkoxy and/or (C1-C4)alkylthio, W=O or S; X,Y=H, halogen, (C1-C4)alkyl, (C1-C4)alkoxy, (C1-C4)alkylthio, where each of the last three radicals may be substituted by halogen, (C1-C4)alkoxy and/or (C1-C4)alkylthio, or mono- or di[(C1-C4)alkyl]amino, (C3-C4)cycloalkyl, (C2-C5)alkenyl, (C2-C5)alkynyl, (C2-C5)alkenyloxy or (C2-C5)alkynyloxy, Z=CH or N, are suitable as herbicides or plant growth regulators, for example for controlling harmful plants in crop plants, including transgenic crop plants. They can be prepared by processes according to claim 6, via intermediates, some of which are novel.